Intro:
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the organisation. We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and share good practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.
Emily Harrison:
Hi, welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast. My name's Emily, I'm a Domestic Abuse Practice Advisor working mainly on the Helpline with the NSPCC. Today we're here to talk about a few topics that show up on the Helpline, Childline and the wider organisation, and indeed in society as well.
Discussions today are focusing on male experiences of domestic abuse and wider harms, harmful masculinity, and also gives thought to how men can be allies for women and children when it comes to looking at alternative behaviours and the work that we're involved with. I'm joined today by Adrian.
Adrian Somerville:
Yeah, my name is Adrian. I'm a Practice Manager with the NSPCC Helpline. I am a counsellor by profession and I continue to deliver counselling to young people outside the organisation one day a week.
Emily:
Stephen.
Stephen Pilling:
Hi, my name is Stephen and I'm a practitioner on the Helpline. I've done this role for around five years. I have a social work background, qualifying in 2009, and much of my work and career has been working in the voluntary sector, supporting children and their families.
Emily:
And Cormac.
Cormac Nolan:
My name is Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the Service Heads in Childline. That means that I have responsibilities for some of our Childline bases and the live service that we offer. But in addition to that, I'm also responsible for the Childline website and everything that goes on there.
Emily:
Welcome, welcome and thank you for taking part. I do appreciate you giving up your time to be able to get this information out there and to have these discussions.
Adrian, if I can just start with you. You've got a lot of experience working with men in a counselling setting. Can you tell us just a little bit about what that looked like to you? So for example, was there a specific personality type that came through and what did their presentation look like?
Adrian:
Well, before I was counselling with young people as I am now, I did work for an organisation working with male survivors of domestic abuse. The common presentation you would see would be men who were afraid to talk about their experiences, men that felt that they just would not be believed, and men who... Yeah, they had gone through various legal process, things like that, where the courts just hadn't believed them. Unfortunately, you know, it has improved, but look, whenever I first started out in this work — in maybe 2010, 2011 — it was very challenging for men. It still is very challenging for men to come forward, but it was extremely challenging back then.
The flip side of that was I also worked with male perpetrators of domestic abuse. Their presentations were very challenging. You would have lots of people who would come because it was court ordered. For example, if they wanted to see their children, they had to receive anger management or they had to go to counselling in relation to what they had done. And the typical presentation really was them trying to groom me, to become their best mate. They thought that I would somehow, because I was a man, take to their story and probably, I don't know, collude with them and say "oh yeah, yeah, I understand what it is, that's terrible, that's terrible, that's terrible." You know, at the start you have to go along with it a little bit to get them to kind of trust you.
And then it's about working and stripping away and challenging their behaviours, sometimes in a way that they find very, very challenging. I remember having one client who was raising his voice going, "I'm not angry, I'm not angry, I'm not angry." And I raised my voice back and said, "you're not angry, you're not angry, you're not angry." Then he sat back in his chair and I said to him, "I wonder how your child feels whenever they see you present like that." What I was trying to do was reflect back; you know, it's bad enough for an adult to be faced with that behaviour, but for a child to be faced with that behaviour. So, yeah, I got to see both sides of it, both sides: of the male perpetrator and the male survivor.
Emily:
It must have been quite a time to work as well, because we say that sometimes, you know, that they're getting better and that we've got more understanding and that we're getting better equipped to deal with things. But everything changes just so quickly, doesn't it? These things, they do go around in circles and cycles. But we also get added layers of difficulty in terms of barriers, in terms of what goes on in society as well, don't we? Stephen, have you had any contacts on the Helpline where you've been able to identify something similar?
Stephen:
Yes, certainly on the Helpline we get calls from perpetrators of abuse and it's trying to recognise that they are perpetrators of the abuse, which can be very, very difficult at times. People can be very convincing in what they say. We do get perpetrators who call, but we also get men who are experiencing abuse as well and the majority of them are fathers. And because parenthood is so complex that, you know, it's often difficult for men — what I'm finding is that it's difficult for men to define their role as a parent.
We have to listen and obviously validate their concerns, but at the same time we also maybe need to signpost them to specialised services who could explore and help them within their definition of concluding if they've been experiencing domestic abuse. Because I think if you're defining the problem initially, it's easier for any individual to work towards solutions. We don't necessarily know the long-term outcomes. So we get a snapshot and we're trying to give certain advice in a very time-limited way.
Emily:
I think those outcomes nationally, not just on the Helpline, but nationally with other organisations and the statutory framework as well, do point to that early intervention, early identification of those pitfalls, problems, dilemmas, barriers. The earlier that we can catch those, the better the outcome for the child. What the Helpline does in terms of giving people that opportunity to talk through the situation, the scenario, what they're experiencing, and their child protection concerns and their safeguarding concerns, or identification of those, is really valuable because we can give that advice over the phone and email when it's not appropriate to talk on the phone as well.
Cormac, your experiences come from a slightly different angle — and that's because you're predominantly with Childline — which of course is the child perspective. So are there any points that you'd like to raise on the subject?
Cormac:
I think just following on from what Stephen said, there are definitely parallels in Childline alongside what Stephen has been saying. What we find in Childline is a lot of young people, young males will come to us knowing that something's not quite right, something doesn't feel right in terms of their experience or indeed on their own behaviour, but they can't quite pin it down. They certainly often don't have a name for it, but something doesn't feel right and it's impacting on the people around them or on themselves. There maybe — you know, we work with children and young people up to the age of 19 — so there can be babies and children involved in these domestic situations.
Children and young people, of course, can be witnesses to domestic abuse, and of course that makes — in the eyes of the law — that makes them victims of that abuse as well. So there's a huge amount to unpick for young males, particularly, and we know historically it's much more difficult for young males to come forward, acknowledge that there's a problem and reach out and seek help. That's our experience over several years.
I feel as though that to some degree that's changing. And one of the key things that we try to do with children and young people when they come through is really work at their pace; help them to feel comfortable talking to someone about what can be a really challenging issue. And we're always very mindful of what it has taken for a young person, a young male, to come through and talk to us in the first instance. There's been a lot of thought, a lot of preparation, probably a lot of soul searching, because it can be either an admission that they've done something wrong, or they feel that they've done something wrong, or that something's wrong in their life and around them.
Emily:
We've just put this into the context of domestic abuse. Let's try and broaden that thinking for a second and think about abuse in more general terms as well. More recently we've heard some different words being used. Some of those words might be 'manosphere', 'toxic masculinity', 'patriarchy', 'misogyny'. These words are coming through the Helpline, they're coming through Childline, and we need to explore what those words mean a little bit, I think, because the word toxic isn't really exploring the concern, it's not explaining what is actually going on.
We're tending to try and, rather than use a label, use that experience. So it might be 'unhealthy masculinity'. It might be 'extreme masculinity'. And of course, when we talk about that masculinity, we're not actually limiting that just to men or males, because that can be present within females, non-binary and trans as well. So it is looking very broadly at those terms and at those experiences.
Stephen, if I could start with you on this one, is there anything coming to your sphere that you think, ah, that is reminding me of this? Would you like to tell us a little bit about it?
Stephen:
I suppose there's nothing springing to mind directly from the Helpline because we deal with so many cases day-to-day. It's very hard to pinpoint one. I suppose we're having this debate right now in regards to framing, using the right language and defining masculinity as a whole, you know, and we're all aware of culture wars that are going on at the moment — language is so important and it's important to get a definition correct.
I think from what I'm picking up is that, if we were to use the term 'toxic masculinity', you've got young men — and older men also — but young men and they feel that it's necessary to suppress their emotions, reject any sense that they themselves might present as vulnerable. What I'm seeing more of — and you see it on social media more and more —people are prioritising dominance and aggression, and there's less focus on actually what is healthy masculinity, what is positive masculinity.
For me right now, we need to be really sensitive in regards to using the correct language and not demonising people in the sense of actually embracing masculinity and letting them understand that it's a spectrum and that we really need to define what is positive masculinity and what is unhealthy.
Emily:
Absolutely. Adrian, have you got a viewpoint on this?
Adrian:
I think going back to Stephen's point about the language, the language is key and the language that we use towards young boys I think is really, really important. Trying to reframe language in a different way for me is important and I've even had debates with others around things that you say to little boys such as "be a brave little soldier". You know, "don't be a cry-baby".
And those messages, although mightn't sound very harmful on face value, if a child takes that and frames that in a certain way that can lead into such— become so destructive later on in life, with young boys afraid to express their emotions, to reach out for help to the likes of Childline whenever they need it.
And I think we all have a duty to rethink the language that we use to young boys growing up today so that they do develop a more healthy viewpoint of masculinity and that they know that being vulnerable and reaching for help whenever you do have difficulties is okay; it's not a bad thing
Emily:
Sure, sure. When we're talking about those children and we're looking at the whole raft of forums that are available, particularly online, for children at the moment — if we put all those together, that is pretty much what the 'manosphere' is. It's the collection of different forums that people are having these conversations on and sometimes they are really unhealthy.
Cormac, from a Childline perspective, have we seen that come through where we're getting young people — boys and girls — coming through with their concerns about forums and participation?
Cormac:
Definitely. And as my colleagues were speaking there, I was just reflecting on the number of influences, external influences, that a young person can be exposed to. Because the online environment is so available, it's there all of the time. And young people can be quite seduced, if you like, or easily influenced into certain environments and certain communities within the online environment that can resonate with them to some degree.
Sometimes for children and young people, they tell us when they become part of this and they become involved in conversations, it's difficult to remove themselves from this. And opinions that they develop wouldn't necessarily have been opinions or thoughts that they would normally have held.
If you imagine that we have a group of children and young people who maybe are at school together, but whose online activity is similar to what I have described, you can see how this thing perpetuates and how it can grow and how we need a more positive influence for children and young people. The point about language earlier on is that we don't tend to use labels, and if a young person brings a label to us we would very much explore "what does that mean for you, how does that impact on you and how does that play out in your life?"
But what I would say is 'toxic' — on its own, not necessarily related to masculinity — but 'toxic' is a word that children and young people frequently use about relationships and friendships. So there's a good understanding that is relevant to children and young people. But in terms of the online environment, absolutely it is hugely influential for children and people and its accessibility we know can be a good thing, but we know it can also be quite a bad thing as well.
Emily:
Absolutely. Adrian, a little earlier on you talked to us a little bit about your counselling work and obviously you've got your Helpline work as well. With the men that you supported as victims of domestic abuse, and those men that came to you for counselling services in general, were there a lot that came through that were fathers? And how did the experiences that they were having, have an impact on their relationship with their children?
So, I'm asking more about the impact of that relationship and those, perhaps, traumas that they'd had. How did that affect the relationship with the children?
Adrian:
Whenever you ask that question, the first thing that comes to mind is most of the men that I work with were fathers. And a common theme that I recall was that the children were frequently encouraged to deride their fathers and see them as being less than men, being weak, being feeble; not being real men because they weren't able to live to the typical male role model in the house with the more dominant female being in the home.
Then you had same-sex couples that were — you know, a male presenting from a same-sex couple — who, again, reaching out for help, they were worried that they were going to be judged and actually being seen as less than men for a double reason; because they'd let this happen to them, because their relationship was seen as being wrong in the first place by some of their family.
So then for this to happen within that relationship, they were often told "well you see, you see". So I think for men, it was the weakness. The weakness; they really felt that their masculinity had been robbed, and you could really see that?
Emily:
That's really interesting, really interesting. You've just touched on something else there that I want us to have a little bit of a discussion about as a group really, so feel free to chip in. Let's talk about role modelling. So what do you see as effective role modelling? What does that look like? What does it look like to you? Stephen, do you want to start us off?
Stephen:
From a personal perspective, I'm a father now. I'm raising a little boy who is now 11 years old and he's entering in this world where he's going to be exposed to social media. He's going be exposed to other opinions outside the family network and he is going to need to make his own decisions in life as a young person. So my aim as a parent in regards to role modelling is — where my primary focus is — is trying to develop an understanding in regards to defining values and what values are.
And the reason that I focus on that so much is that my hope is that if my child is values-led in life, that will equip him in regards to making good choices and good decisions in life and in relationships in the future. And I think where the struggle is right now — and it was something I didn't learn until into my early 20s — although that I did have a value and belief base, I couldn't clearly define it. I got help with that and I think that's where we need to aim our focus and modelling in regards to children and people; getting them to understand what a value is and defining their values, encouraging them and helping them to define their values moving forward.
Emily:
I suppose it's developing that moral compass as well, isn't it, to be able to carry through. Yeah. Cormac, did you have a thought in mind there?
Cormac:
I guess my principle thought really is that, for children and young people, we have to be mindful that they're still growing, they're still developing, they are still trying to find who they are, "where do I fit in, what type of person am I?" So they're already in a time of development but also a time of confusion — throw in puberty just to confuse things even more. And I think— I mean, I totally agree with what Stephen has said, and I probably would add to that: that as adults, we need to be very mindful of our behaviour and how our behaviour can influence children and young people. It's not as black and white as right and wrong — it kind of is, but everybody's right and everybody's wrong is slightly different.
We should endeavour to be positive role models, to behave in a way that we would like to see other children and young people, including our own, behave. To be respectful to other people. And I think we can keep it simple. It doesn't have to be complex, but I think it needs to be consistent and that's sometimes where it can be difficult. But to have a bit of understanding and a bit sympathy for how difficult it is growing up. We all know, we've been there, and it's even more difficult now. And to be aware of the external influences and have a curiosity particularly about online life, and online and external activity; a healthy curiosity and interest that your child will respond positively too.
Adrian:
Reflecting on both what Stephen and Cormac have said, I do see positives taking place. I'm aware of one organisation based in Belfast. They try and incorporate what both Stephen and Cormac have talked about. They go out and they talk to young men in schools, young boys in schools. And they, rather than... Whenever these views come up, these toxic views come up, these unhealthy views, rather than saying, "you're wrong, that's bad, you shouldn't be doing that", they explore. They explore where those viewpoints have come from. They explore to get an understanding of what that child or young person's life has been like to lead them to that point.
I think it's that engagement that's really important. That we continue to engage, that we don't label someone a certain way because they have a viewpoint. We don't know what their history has been. We don't know what's led them to the point. But we can help them move forward, gain an understanding of what's lead them there and hopefully help them to develop more healthy viewpoints by challenging — gently challenging and, as Cormac said earlier on, at their pace. That work is taking place because I do see it happening and it gives me hope.
Emily:
Absolutely, absolutely. I think it's about keeping the conversation going as well, isn't it? Because we know that we need to have services accessible for people who are identifying that maybe this is something that they'd like to talk about. Maybe this is something they'd like to explore their own feelings on, which is obviously something that we absolutely encourage.
If you need to, give the NSPCC Helpline a call: 0808 800 5000 is the number for that. We also have, of course, Childline, who we actively encourage children that would like to talk through what they're feeling, particularly if they are feeling quite vulnerable around this topic as well. And that is 0800 1111. We do actively encourage people to give us a call and we can help you to talk through those concerns.
Adrian, Cormac and Stephen, thank you very, very much for your time. It's been a really good discussion and hopefully it'll be one that we will continue in the office and will continue to talk about in our day-to-day business. Thank you. And you've been listening to the NSPCC Learning Podcast.
Outro:
Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning Podcast. At the time of recording, this episode's content was up to date, but the world of safeguarding and child protection is ever-changing. So, if you're looking for the most current safeguarding and child protection training, information or resources, please visit our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.
