Intro:
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the organisation. We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and share good practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.
Producer:
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. Being exposed to domestic abuse is a form of child abuse. Children don't need to be directly involved for this to be the case. They may have seen or heard or experienced the effects of domestic abuse in the family. This can have a big impact on a child's behaviour, brain development, education outcomes and overall wellbeing.
In 2023-24, Childline counsellors delivered over 1000 counselling sessions to children and young people whose main concern was domestic abuse. They discussed feeling scared, worried, unhappy, angry and helpless. In the same time period, the NSPCC helpline received over 6,800 child welfare contacts where the main concern was domestic abuse.
This episode of the podcast, recorded in September 2024, brings together representatives from the NSPCC Helpline and Childline to talk about the different ways domestic abuse affects babies, children and young people, and how you can spot the signs and support children who are affected.
Here's Paddi Vint to introduce the discussion.
Paddi Vint:
Hello there, my name is Paddi Vint and I'm Development and Quality Manager within the NSPCC Helpline. I oversee a domestic abuse project. I've got Cormac Nolan with me today.
Cormac Nolan:
Hello, I'm Cormac Nolan and I'm one of the service heads in Childline, the 24 hour, seven day a week, 365 day a year helpline for children and young people.
Paddi:
I also have Joanne McKenna, one of our domestic abuse practice advisors — or DAPAs as we refer to them on the Helpline — with me.
Joanne McKenna:
Hi Paddi. As you said, I'm Joanne McKenna or Jo McKenna, and I'm one of the DAPAs — domestic abuse practice advisors - on the Helpline. And my role on the Helpline is we offer support to the Helpline practitioners in terms of domestic abuse calls.
We have small caseloads of high-risk domestic abuse cases, and we also deliver training around domestic abuse across the Helpline.
Paddi:
Sometimes it can be really helpful for professionals to marry up what children are telling us alongside their behaviour, and that's why I felt it was really important to try and do a joint podcast with Childline, who are clearly best-placed to be able to shed some light on the feelings and emotions that children are telling their Childline counsellors. And to marry that alongside what adults are telling us from Jo in her DA work on the Helpline.
But I'm also really conscious that some people listening to the podcast might not actually know who even calls the Helpline or what the Helpline's about. Jo, would you mind giving us a bit of an overview of who contacts the helpline?
Joanne:
Yeah, course. Anybody that has worries or concerns about a child — so it could be parents and victims directly; it could be teachers and safeguarding leads that want to share some concerns; we get calls from sports coaches, employers of the staff, neighbours; family members, including grandparents, older siblings, aunties and uncles; to churches and faith leaders and support workers.
So, any adult really that has worries and concerns for children in terms of neglect, physical abuse, emotional harm, sexual abuse and online safety. What we're seeing more and more and more is domestic abuse within the Helpline, and that's coming through daily; we get loads and loads of calls around domestic abuse.
Paddi:
And I'm right in thinking the Helpline's there for those small queries and those small worries right through, as you mentioned there, to some of the bigger things as well?
Joanne:
Yes. So we often get parents that can ring in around boundaries for the children — if the children are acting up within the home — looking for parenting strategies.
And then once we speak to the parents or the adults that are ringing in and we do a little bit of unpicking, we tend to find that domestic abuse is one of the main factors within that family home.
Paddi:
That's right, Jo, thank you so much. And Cormac, in terms of Childline, what are those children and young people telling Childline about their experience of domestic abuse?
Cormac:
We do hear from a very high number of children and young people in Childline. And what we hear from those children and young people are concerns about arguments in the home, arguments that are often not one-off arguments. More than bickering, and that's quoting a young person, actually saying that.
They talk to us about aggressive behaviour in the home, they talk about threats being made, they talk about coercive and controlling behaviour, often around access to money and resources within the home and sometimes leaving the home or being able to leave the home. That goes right on through to physical violence. We hear a lot, on Childline, I've seen a lot, children and young people talking about things being thrown to physically hurt people in the relationships.
The children and young people talk to us about domestic abuse, but not in the conventional framework of domestic abuse, because they often don't use that term 'domestic abuse'. And often what they're doing is checking out what is happening, But through our conversation, we can piece together that what has happened to them is domestic abuse and while that's a difficult conversation, it's an important one because it frames what's going on for a young person.
Paddi:
Cormac, that's really important, that you've mentioned there about a child's use of language. What adults may see as domestic abuse, for a child's frame of mind at that stage, they're still thinking of arguments and aggressive behaviour. It's not always that language of domestic abuse is there.
Cormac:
That's true in so many issues that children and young people bring to us. And one of the rules we offer in Childline in terms of the support is to help a child or young person to understand better what is going on around them and what is going on for them.
We want to move that on, of course, to ways to cope and ways to get things to stop. And for some young people that can be relatively quick and relatively straightforward. But, as we all know, no two cases are the same. So there is complexity. We do need to take time to understand the young person's safety arrangements, exactly what's going on at home, the young person's own understanding of what's going on for them, potential risk to other children and young people as well.
So it does build up from an alarming picture to quite a complex picture and we need to take time to understand from a young person what's going on for them in a very child-centred way. And as you said, Paddi, using language that is not technical language, clinical language, but language that is suitable for the age group that we're dealing with. And that can vary, too.
Paddi:
Thank you, Cormac. And Jo, I'm conscious as well that we sometimes have contacts on the Helpline as well, where non-abusive parents are contacting us, sounding out if something is abusive or not. So even for adults, that term 'domestic abuse' can sometimes not necessarily really reflect or resonate with them until they talk to a child protection expert or a domestic abuse practice adviser on the Helpline.
Joanne:
The term domestic abuse is such a formal term and some people, they don't want to be associated with domestic abuse. And as you say, a lot of victims don't know they're in an abusive relationship, as do the children.
And it's only when they'll share things, for example, getting my phone checked all the time. I can't move anywhere. I can't go anywhere. I've got no access to money. I'm getting undermined with the children. The other parent's getting the children to call me names. To when we read that back to them and say, "do you know, do you think this is abuse? This looks to me like domestic abuse." And it's only when we go through the different tactics of abuse, the victim will say, "you know what, yeah that's me. That's what's exactly what's happening to me." And then that tends to open the doors to getting that support in place.
In terms of some of the professionals, they'll ring up not just because of domestic abuse, but they will say this child's coming into school late all the time. They're off all the time, they're not ready to learn when they get here. They can't concentrate. I'm seeing things withing their artwork. They're presenting angry or they're withdrawn.
And it's when we can turn round and we can say to them, have you asked about the lived experience, do we know what's going on? Are the parents saying things within the playground? And it's about putting those jigsaw pieces together with the child and getting that child's voice and learning more about what's going on within that home.
Paddi:
Thanks, Jo. So, you know, obviously we were chatting there about some of the way it presents and the Helpline has received over 6,500 contacts in relation to domestic abuse from adults. And as you quite rightly say, it's not just the non-abusive parents who are contacting us, it's those neighbours and parents and professionals. And it does seem to differ slightly from what Cormac is telling us, what children are telling us, and how it's being presented.
Tell me a little bit more about how maybe, when professionals phone us, what are they saying? What are they telling us that children's behaviours are like?
Joanne:
So it could be... A child could be particularly very, very angry all the time; argumentative, smashing things up, getting involved with criminality. Bunking off school and skipping school. So it could be a range of things.
In terms of babies, it's how that child's presenting. Is it presenting as neglected, is it crying all the time? Is it reluctant to go to a certain adult because it can't use its voice? So it's about using their observational skills and saying this child, this baby is not presenting normally and reaching the milestones that they should be reaching.
Paddi:
Because often things like that could get overlooked as 101 other reasons other than domestic abuse. So as you say, it's really important that we have those conversations.
Cormac, in terms of, you know… Jo had mentioned there and yourself had mentioned about coercive control within those kind of behaviours and relationships. Is that something that Childline are seeing more and more within the relationships?
Cormac:
Yeah, we are definitely seeing more of that in relationships and we are seeing it in relationships between young people as well. And I think one of the big misunderstandings that young people still bring to us is that domestic abuse can only happen in the home between a married couple. And I think that's something we try and explain to them, that it's within a relationship setting and it doesn't have to be someone who lives in the home on a regular basis or who is directly connected to the family.
Yeah, we definitely do see more about coercive control in relationships, as we said earlier, around money, around access to other people, about seeing and visiting family or about family coming over. And children and young people often know that that's not normal. They know that that's not right, but they just can't piece it together. They don't have the opportunity or the space to think about it. And that's one of the things Childline tries to offer them is the space to think about it.
Can I just say, Paddi, as well, it was interesting listening to Jo there when she was talking about the acting out behaviours that they see in children and young people. Often we hear from children and young people about hidden behaviours. Things like self harm, about poor mental health and addictions, eating disorders, things like that; that the young person struggles with and struggles with on their own, but is as a result of the emotional disturbance and the emotional feelings that are created for them and the lack of support, often that is there for the young person, when they see this thing going on in the home setting or in a parent's relationship.
Paddi:
Cormac, would it be fair to say that sometimes these behaviours that are outwardly presenting to the NSPCC Helpline are driven from a place of fear for some of the young people?
Cormac:
Absolutely. It's a fear of the physical circumstances. It's a fear of the emotional circumstances. But there's also a fear for children and young people of what is going to happen. What's going to happen next? Am I at risk of physical harm? Are my siblings at risk of physical harm? If, following a conversation with Childline, if this ends up being reported — which could be an option, we wouldn't force a young person into anything unless we had major concerns, unless Childline had major concerns — what will happen next? Will we be separated as a family? Will things go on as they were. There is fear but that fear is fed by a number of concerns for the young person.
Paddi:
It's interesting to see that young people are now recognising this coercive controlling behaviour, which could be a fairly new term for a lot of people. But it's really important that we reflect that it's a term now that's used in legislation, which is incredible, and it gives that power and ownership back to the non-abusive parent, to the victim themselves and to the children that are affected.
And it's also really important that we also reflect now that in legislation, we're seeing children as very much co-victims and not the kind of 'seen-and-not-heard' version where children are just merely in the periphery of these situations that are playing out. That we're actually recognising these children are direct victims themselves.
Is that something that is reflected when people contact Helpline, Jo?
Joanne:
Yeah, absolutely. And I'm so glad that we're moving away from a child witnessing domestic abuse to being a victim in their own right. A lot of the children that are coming through within the families that we're dealing with, they're often caretakers or protective of being the in-between with the parents. You know, the go-between.
We're finding that young people and children are getting tags put on them so the abusive parent can follow where they are, where they can spy on them. They're getting asked questions about the other parent. Who are their parents with, what they're doing, what they're spending time with, withholding maintenance payments.
Those kind of things stop that child from being able to experience good, nice things and get the care that they need. Name-calling the other parent, undermining. And it's the child who's in the centre of all this, and it's the child that's impacted the most.
Paddi:
So that post-separation abuse very much being a key feature in the ongoing abuse between the parents, but with the child being a direct victim within that.
Joanne:
Absolutely Paddi, yeah. And it's the impact on the child's mental health and who that child should side with. Should that child be telling one parent what the parent's doing and that questioning. And they're not allowed to be children. They're that go-between and that caretaker of the two adults.
Paddi:
Jo mentions their how some children take on those protective roles and they're the kind of caretaker roles that we sometimes see. And there is a level of responsibility that some young people potentially take on board when they're in that situation, particularly in the home environment.
Cormac, what would you— what would your advice to those young people be around their responsibility or what shouldn't be their responsibility?
Cormac:
It's very clear to Childline that it's not a child's responsibility to fix what is going on at home, and it is not a child's responsibility to long-term look after all the needs of siblings.
A term we often use in Childline when we're talking to them because of what they say to us is it's not a child's fault either. Some children can feel that they are responsible for what is happening in terms of having caused it. That's nonsense. Of course not. But it's also not a child's responsibility to fix it.
What we want to do is take that responsibility in Childline. To take the responsibility off the child or young person, to help them understand what is going and collaborate with them to get help and support; how to cope with what is going on, how to live an ordinary childhood and how to get help to make things stop so it is not a child's responsibility to fix things or make things better. They may well feel that, and part of the conversation with Childline can be about teasing that out and helping a young person to understand the complexity that is there and that blame or responsibility does not begin or end with them.
Paddi:
I certainly remember as a Helpline practitioner, taking a call from an adult sibling who had left university, and it's quite poignant at the time now — that this is the time for older siblings leaving to start their university journey. And I always remember a contact we received from a young student who had just started their first year, worried about leaving the home environment because they were the one who were that kind of protective factor. That when there had been an incident the night before, they got their brother and sister up and dressed for school, they gave them their breakfast, they made sure they got picked up from school on time.
And her concern was she needed to be out of that environment. And she knew that. But her biggest worry was that she was leaving behind those two younger siblings in the home.
Jo, I'm just wondering, is that something that you see frequently as well?
Joanne:
Yeah, we do. Sadly, we do get lots of siblings calling up. Young people are worried about their siblings and the parent that's being abuse and they do feel that responsibility. We can reassure them, validate them and say, you know, you're not responsible. As Cormac said, you're not responsible for this. This is the responsibility of the abusive parents and we can get you the help and we can get you that support. So, yeah, we do see a lot.
Paddi:
What safeguarding actions should be taken by professionals if they do have concerns? That they're seeing behaviours played out by children. They may or may not have a direct disclosure of what's happening in the home.
What can professionals working with those children and young people do to safeguard them, Jo?
Joanne:
They can start by actually speaking to the child and listening to the child. Learning about their experiences of what's going on within the home. You know, being interested in that child. Following their safeguarding policy for one, especially if it's in a school or sports coaching. Every agency or every organisation should have some kinds of safeguarding policy if they're working directly with children.
And getting advice, further advice, calling the helpline and saying, you know, things aren't sitting right with me. I've got this child displaying these kinds of behaviours. We can help with those referrals to safeguarding agencies such as children's social care and the police.
So it's about multi-agency working, Paddi. It's not just about sitting on these worries and concerns. If an agency's got any concerns, we need to act on it and safeguard that child.
Paddi:
I also think that sometimes those small — what could maybe be insignificant — things that professionals are maybe seeing— so little things, they're late one day, maybe it's a Friday after pick-up or drop-off. Then the following week it's the same. Then they've come in and they've forgotten kit, or they're a little bit upset and they're acting out.
In isolation, those things may seem quite small, but it's when you start to record them and create a timeline and a chronology of those behaviours that you're seeing, how the child's appearing, going home or coming back, those are sometimes key things that can really support your sense that something's not right.When you actually look back those could what be small, insignificant things can actually appear to have a much bigger part to play.
Joanne:
Yeah, and we do promote that with the victims that we work with when there's children in post-separation abuse. It's about can you see a difference in your child when they come back from being with that parent. What are they like before they go? Is there any change in the behaviour, are they acting up when they come back?
And we do advise to keep a log of that because, further on the line, should the family court have to get involved, that can be used to demonstrate the child's voice of how they feel about that other parent.
Paddi:
For me as well, I don't think there's ever too early a time to start introducing healthy and unhealthy relationships. I think it's something that we need to become really good at as professionals, about calling out behaviours that we see as maybe being unhelpful or unhealthy.
Would that be fair and true from a Childline point of view as well?
Cormac:
Absolutely. We also have content on the Childline website around healthy and unhealthy relationships, and that has stemmed from the number of contacts that we have that we talked about earlier around coercive behaviour. Children and young people feeling that something's not right, but not knowing exactly what that is or understanding the extent of it.
Paddi:
We understand for anybody talking about domestic abuse, it isn't easy for adults and absolutely true it's the same that it's not always easy for children and young people.
I remember we had a parent contact us to tell us that her son, he'd been quite uncomfortable with his father and stepmother. They were shouting and, as you said, arguing was the terminology that he had used, but it had been dismissed by the father when mum spoke to him. But a few weeks later, children's services contacted mum and said that there had actually been a domestic abuse incident in the home with the father and the stepmom and that her son wouldn't be able to stay there any further. Mum really struggled with just chatting to her son about what happened or even to get any information. It was as if he was kind of shutting down.
What do children and young people tell Childline about how they want to be supported? Because I'm conscious that sometimes as adults we can be really well-meaning, but we don't always get it right. And we come from a place of what would help us, but that's maybe not how children want to be supported.
Cormac:
I think that's a really important question because the focus has to be on a child or young person and it's a dangerous assumption to make that the child or young person doesn't know what they want or doesn't know what's best for them. So we spend time at Childline trying to figure out what a child wants to happen. I think ultimately the obvious answer to that question is they want what's happening to stop. But we all know that that's not a straightforward process.
So we can break that process up into little pieces with a young person. What can they do to protect themselves? What can they do to distract themselves? How can they cope with the arguing when it's happening? How can they find a space and a time for themselves? Ultimately, they want things to go back to how they were before this happened to a happier time.
Often they'll say they want to be like other families, because when they're going to school, they're not hearing their peers talking about abuse necessarily, or domestic abuse taking place in the home. So they want things to stop. They want to feel normal. They want things to be normal for them and they want them and their siblings to be safe.
Sometimes children and young people who speak to Childline have got some of their own ideas and have already got some strategies in place. And sometimes it can be just about confirming and affirming that for the young person. On a more basic level — and this is true of any topic — children and young people also just want a space where they can express what's going on. They want somewhere where someone who is impartial and supportive will listen to what they have to say, will help them to understand, piece things together, be accepting of what's going on. Yes, non-judgemental, and will give them time and space and, I think really crucially for Childline, Paddi, be available when they need them to be available because Childline is a 24 hour a day, seven day a week service with a number of ways which children and young people can contact them.
And for a lot of children and young people we know sometimes late at night is maybe the only time that they can contact or in the morning on the way to school. So I think all of those things are what children and young people want from us as an organisation.
Paddi:
And certainly those are all the skills there you said — you know, being that impartial, accepting, non-judgemental — those can all be things that other professionals who are supporting that young person can bring.
Certainly a teacher, a sports coach... As you say, creating that space to have those conversations and to work through those issues with the child can be really important and powerful for that child because it's not always the parent that's going to be able to offer that support.
We do need to look to our counsellors like yourselves and Childline and those other special adults in that child's life to be able to support that.
Thank you, Jo and Cormac, it's been great to be able to bring together two sides of a story from the NSPCC, one from the Helpline and one from Childline, and seeing how actually, while there may be differences, they certainly do cross over. I think that's been hopefully really useful for some professionals listening to the podcast. Thank you very much for your time.
Joanne:
Thanks very much. It's been great speaking to you both.
Cormac:
Thank you very much Paddi. Thank you, Joanne.
Paddi:
If anybody would like further information or has concerns for a child, they're very welcome to contact the NSPCC Helpline on 0808 800 5000, or drop us an email to help@NSPCC.org.uk.
Outro:
Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast. At the time of recording, this episode’s content was up to date but the world of safeguarding and child protection is ever changing – so, if you're looking for the most current safeguarding and child protection training, information or resources, please visit our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.
