Intro:
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the organisation. We aim to create debate, encourage reflection and share good practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.
George Linfield (Producer):
Welcome to the NSPCC Learning Podcast. This is the second half of a conversation between Colin Smy from the NSPCC's Blackpool Better Start Service and Ged Docherty, Team Manager at For Baby's Sake in Blackpool. The discussion, recorded in September 2023, looks at how For Baby's Sake uses therapeutic, trauma-informed and strengths-based approaches to support parents going through adversity during the early years.
In this part, Colin and Ged will talk about why it's so important to involve fathers in early intervention. And if you haven't listened to the first part of the conversation yet, we advise you do that before listening to this episode. We rejoin the conversation with Colin explaining why early intervention is so important.
Colin Smy:
Well, what we're trying to do is reduce the requirement of hitting the social care, you know, after something's happened. We want to be catching families and supporting them before it's happened. And that's sometimes a challenge. Early intervention and For Baby's Sake limits the need for social work because nothing's gone wrong, therefore. You've worked on the positives. You've really drawn out all positive assets that the family has and built on those so they're focusing on them rather than something going wrong. So we're changing that narrative in those early days for those babies to think... to change the family; instead of trying to avoid making a mistake, to start focusing on doing the right things. And that's where it becomes of a benefit for a child and we start to move into the next area that we look at around school readiness. Because there is something about the fathers but I can see you're dying to tell me something here.
Ged Docherty:
Just before we get into that. I think there's something else that I think is really significant in terms of safeguarding. So we have a particular approach in For Baby's Sake, which is that we eradicate the use of shame from the work that we do. When we have families who've been in situations — multiple situations — that has the potential to cause them to feel shame. We take that shame away from the work that we do but what we don't do is take away accountability. So we support people without the use of shame to accept accountability and responsibility for any behaviours that are causing harm to them or others. And we work on that.
But we do absolutely come from a strengths-based and asset-based perspectives because there will be stuff, we just need to find it. We need to encourage those families to identify it. And when we find those gold nuggets, that's where we start to build on it. And that's, that's in harmony with the other ways of working, the new models of practice that are being developed in Blackpool, especially like our Blackpool family's model of practice.
Colin:
Yeah, and I think those things really help families face up to the adversities that they come across on a daily basis. Instead of those being, you know— individually, you or I could, or most people could probably cope with challenges around clothing, around food, housing, parenting, education, whatever it may be. But if we put — counting them on your fingers — if you put all those five things together at once, and make a fist. And that's a lot for people to have to deal with in one go. And you or I would struggle to deal with all those in one go. One, two, possibly even three you could deal with at a time but it would be an inconvenience. But to deal with them all at the same time, which we know in areas of deprivation tends to be actually they're facing multiple level of adversity.
So whilst we're going to talk about one thing with parenting and how the children are doing, actually, we've also got to bear in mind that they might also be trying to figure out how to put the heating on tonight. They might also be trying to figure out how to put food on the table or avoid other things that are going on, make sure there's clothing. So we kind of have to think about those adversities and take the positives out where we can to where people are doing well.
And it brings me to the question around the therapeutic work — which I think is what you're sort of leading into there — to face those adversities that you might do to help families rethink about what they're facing instead of us stigmatising them. And that's what ultimately leads to limiting the safeguarding challenges that we have. So what are some of those therapeutic — before we go on to talk about fathers and school readiness, that I've got jotted down here — what are some of those therapeutic works that you do.
Ged:
So I guess one of the things — because I'm conscious we are limited on time — but if we think about we, the team and I, are trained in the use of DBT — dialectical behavioural therapy. One of the things that is really useful within that concept is called a chain analysis. And what that does is it supports a person to think in a particular way. We can all get trapped in cycles of unhelpful thinking when we will go to a place of negativity and a place of doom and gloom, and especially if your circumstances are dire to begin with. And it's about supporting people to go to a solution-focused approach. Find ways of using your inherent resources to get to where you need to be.
And if we think about the situation that you just briefly described, when you have all of that adversity to face: the rising cost of living, the significant rent increases. The bulk of our housing stock in Blackpool is privately rented housing stock and landlords are feeling the pinch and they're increasing the rent and it's one thing after another and that of itself is enough to trigger conflict in any relationship. So in our work we completely recognise the impact that all of those things can have. We have a global view of that family's circumstances.
We adopt a whole family approach. We take it all into consideration and we work in partnership with parents to think, okay, if we can, if we can tackle this, let's box that off. We'll access some funding for you for that, we'll make a grant application to them; discretionary, and the whole time we're supporting that family to spin those plates and hopefully reducing the potential for conflict in that situation whilst developing new skills, new approaches, new ways of thinking, new ways of being.
Colin:
Yeah. And I think what's important is when we reduce those challenges, it's allowed us — and obviously within your For Baby's Sake team — to bring those families to the starting line. Really, when we look at a lot of other families, we've had children growing up who haven't been able to take themselves to services and just join in from the off. Some of our families who are facing those adversities need to navigate that to start with. In the early days of their children’s, their baby's lives, they need that therapeutic way to get to the starting line.
So the other things that we implement through Better Start support the parent-infant relationships — so being able to address that and understanding how that triad of the parent and the baby works and how important and invaluable is. And then understanding home learning environments, because it's not just about being at nursery or a stay-in place, it's understanding actually in the home how you experience that.
And I think we've seen that with Jake and Charlotte in the way they've spoken about their lives changing and moving forward. There’s clips where they're talking about how they've changed their relationship, they’ve changed their outlooks, they've changed the way they view their impact as parents, especially Jake. His impact being a father, which probably brings us to the latter areas of talking about why it's important to to include families in early intervention.
We already know about fathers who are actively involved have a positive impact on children's education, their attainment, the social emotional development, how they form relationships with others, with their reading, with lots of things. And inversely, those who aren't involved have the opposite impact.
One of the other aspects that's come up recently, which supports school readiness, is a study recently by Leeds University and Fatherhood Institute1 — it's been a long term study — has looked at the impact of involved fathers in children's education. And they've established the actual specific age ranges in the years of the children we're talking about here, they just about snip into the 1001 day bracket, because at age three, in the third year, a father who's involved in a child's education, has a positive impact on their key stage results at age 11. So they've tracked enough children involved with fathers now from that age three up to age 11 and been able to see a consistent pattern of involved fathers at three, their children perform well at key stage two. So they've had a positive impact on the child's educational development and performance. Not to say that mums don't, but we know that fathers and mothers provide different inputs, don't they?
Ged:
Hundred percent.
Colin:
There is a huge impact of how fathers are able to support their babies in their lives and that's why we do a lot of work in Blackpool around that. But to bring it back to yourself, and we're looking at Jake and Charlotte, is the impact that you see in your teams — because you'll have some families where father is present with mum, some families where father isn't present at all, and some families, I'm sure, where father is actually the main parent that you come across and the primary caregiver. So it's just asking for your reflections really on what you see the challenges are for men.
We've established that men and fathers are important in child's lives. We know that. We've got reports to prove it now, and we can see the impact of the power of play on children. But, for you, where do you see that importance for fathers and what are the challenges that fathers face in being involved in early intervention?
Ged:
That is a really complicated question.
Colin:
Very complicated.
Ged:
It is a complicated question. So let me try and hang my hat on something. I guess, from a personal perspective, I spent a lifetime in various roles working with children and families where I would sit round the table and I would be the only man. And now my eternal question was where are the men? Where are the dads? Why is dad not here? I did that as a family worker, I did it as a social worker, and men always seem to be missing. And I was always extremely curious about why we couldn't pull them into the circle.
When I think about it, you and I were recently involved in that roundtable discussion when we got put into groups and I got put into a group with five other women. And I said, "this has been my career". And then he split us up and put another man in the group. And I thought, our world is populated by women, the world that you and I work in.
Colin:
Yeah.
Ged:
We are a very small group of men who do this work. And if we feel it, those dads out there feel it. They may perceive that society has created roles for women and roles for men. And you're over there and if we need owt, will ask you. And it's about encouraging those men not to see the world that way, to see the joy in their baby, in their child, to acknowledge and accept the considerable influence that they can have on their child.
We talk about it with our For Baby's Sake dads all the time. From the minute we meet them, we say to them, "We can't do this without you." This will not happen if you don't join in and join in now and get the ball rolling. Increase your presence with your partner and your baby. Find your strength, find your role, find your groove. What can you bring to the table? And it's that openness that we bring into the situation, going back to the the lack of judgement that I talked about.
It's saying to that dad, "we need you. Your baby needs you. This situation needs you. And if you put yourself as an investment into the bank — see your baby as a bank account — invest from day one and you will get paid back. You will have returns in the future when your child thrives and you have contributed significantly to that."
Owen:
What it felt like to them to have been included like that.
Jake:
It's been amazing. I mean, at the end of the day, a lot of services now mostly, especially with with what For Baby's Sake offer towards people, towards people that have been involved in relationships that've had domestic violence incidents. And a lot of services always judge the perpetrator of that in the relationship, when if services were to work with that perpetrator, it would, you know, work wonders. And it's just been great. And I would recommend it to anybody to work with For Baby's Sake for that reason. I mean, I've never felt judged. I've never— I've never been judged whatsoever. I've just had fair work. And, you know, and that's it. It's been good. Yeah.
Karen:
And when we're talking about including Jake as much as possible in Isabella's early life, how do you think that helped? The programme's helped with that?
Charlotte:
I think it's it's always important for us both to be included. It was— it's easy to just think that I'm the only parent when I'm Isabella's sole carer. It was good to get each other's point of view. So when we were doing our sessions, we always spoke about Jake. We had a meeting once, like a review, and whilst Jake was in custody, he was able to record stories for Isabella. And Karen I don't think had ever heard Jake's voice and Ged had never heard Jake's voice, but we got to share the story that Jake had read for Isabella in that session, which was really nice because you got to know Jake a little bit and listen to his story for Isabella.
Ged:
Men need to believe that they are valued as a parent and not all men do.
Colin:
I think it's fantastically put that, because I think what we come across, it's that value as a parent. And it's not even that value as a father it's a value as a parent, being acknowledged as a parent. There is an argument for having their own identity as a father, and the advice for anyone listening who works with dads is to reinforce dad's role at as early an opportunity as possible.
Ged:
Absolutely.
Colin:
Talk to him about his role and value as a parent and his own identity as well. And I think this is where in Blackpool we're trying to look at things differently. Everywhere else in the country you see people putting up 'dads stay and play', dads this, dads that. Sooner or later, that funding runs out for the duplicated activity that's just on for dads. And then dads look at the timetables and say, "Oh, well there's nothing that says 'dads' in it, I can't go".
Ged:
It says parent and toddler, so I can't go.
Colin:
Yeah, exactly. Instead of thinking "I can go to everything and I'm invited to everything.
Ged:
Because I'm a parent.
Colin:
Because I'm a parent. And what we've... When we actually listen to dads, and this is a mistake, I think — it's not a mistake, I think it's the misinterpretation that people make sometimes — they put on activities specifically for dads, thinking that'll make them come. When you listen to dads they're not saying I want an activity that is just for dads, that is just for me. I would just like there to be more dads there. Nines times out of ten, when you translate what they're saying to you, that's what they're telling you: "I just wish there was more dads there." Because then I wouldn't feel that the only person in the room.
Ged:
Do you know one of the saddest things that I've heard during my time in For Baby's Sake. So, working with this couple, we're still working with them now, when baby was... Their son was only a few weeks old, we were doing a craft activity with mum and dad downstairs in our family hub. And we were going to do footprints that they could frame and keep a snapshot of that moment in time of that child's life. And dad was kind of on the sidelines and mum was getting stuck in, enjoying the crafty, creative aspect, whilst we were still having those conversations about the importance of play and connecting with their baby. And I could see that he was really hesitant. And I said to him, "Are you okay? Does this feel okay for you?" And he said, "I don't know how to do it." And I said to him, "Well, which bit? Which don't you know how to do?" And he said, "I don't know how to play. No one taught me how to play." He'd lived with his birth family and then he was fostered and lived in a number of families and then went into a children's home. And at no point along that journey did anyone teach that man as a child how to play.
Colin:
And that's his own trauma that he's had to grow up with. And now he's an adult, and probably being chastised for not being able to parent his own child.
Ged:
Yeah.
Colin:
Because nobody sat down with him to give him the time to actually ask him, you know, "what's happened? How have you done?" And they're just presuming he's not interested.
Ged:
We make assumptions in the work that we do and we need to sometimes as professionals check ourselves and we need to check in that someone actually knows or has the confidence to be able to share what he did. He was able to share that because we'd put the investment in during the term of the pregnancy. If we'd just met him at that moment in time and he didn't know us, I wouldn't tell anyone that. But he was able to tell us that because he felt safe, because he knew in that moment in time we would respond appropriately and we wouldn't judge him and find it ludicrous that a grown man, who had contributed to the birth of a child, did not know how to play.
Colin:
Yeah, it's when people talk about having the perfect parents, isn't it. You quite often can't get the perfect parents. You can only parent off what you've learnt as a child or what you're experiencing as an adult and what you're being taught. And it's much the same within— I think, when there's the expectation that it's okay, father doesn't need to know. Actually sometimes that's excusing their ability to be able to parent.
So all that's doing is it actually probably ends up putting more pressure on mum because sometimes it disengages fathers because, you know, if you hadn't have been there to have that conversation with him or whoever it was had that conversation, would anybody have ever said to him, or he ever said to anybody, that he didn't know what to do and then been able to get some help and support and what to do and actually being told, you know, it's okay, we'll work through this and you do what you feel is best. Would he have just disengaged himself from that relationship with the child there?
Ged:
Potentially, yeah.
Colin:
Yeah. The parent-infant relationship is then broken down which potentially is putting more pressure on mum and puts more stress on the relationship that you spoke about before.
Ged:
Causes conflict and it goes round and round.
Colin:
It's the whole cycle. For the first 1001 days of that baby's child development, all they're seeing is stress, strain and the struggles, the conflict and all of the toxic things that we don't want to introduce into a child's life.
Ged:
And there's no learning for that child about how to — going back to our earlier conversation — how to self-sooth, self-regulate, form secure attachments, because all you see is this. You see that butting heads, that disagreement, those falling outs, those silences, all of that because people can't articulate.
I think one of the other significant things that we do in For Baby's Sake is we teach our parents emotional literacy. People can say, "I'm thinking this, I'm feeling this." So we give them both the verbal capacity and the emotional capacity to be able to speak it, to name it, to own it. All of that stuff is really, really important.
Jake:
I mean, I've learnt how to recognise my feelings, recognise my emotions, realise that it's okay to walk away. If you're having a disagreement, it's okay to walk away and leave that disagreement. You don't have to sort it out there and then. You're not going to lose your relationship over it. You just walking away because it's the better option. It's the better plan to keep both yourself, your partner and your child out of harm's way.
Colin:
The first 1001 days of Jake and Charlotte's baby's life could have gone a number of different ways; quite a few could have been negative. You know, Jake's in prison, Charlotte's on her own, both of them have got their own traumas that they need to contend with on top of being parents and the stresses of they'll have there. And that early intervention has reduced the safeguarding because it's brought them together as a family. So, baby's already growing in utero; baby's born; and now because they're talking, they're communicating, and the home environment is much calmer, it's better for communication and language, better for the parent-infant relationship. They've been able to come to the support sessions and classes to understand good child development, ensuring that they're not overloading them sensory through their play, but also not overloading the sensory through arguments and conflict, and reducing all those toxic inputs that can come in.
And the therapeutic work that've come into it has supported the family of Jake, Charlotte and baby to try to identify the positives. If they could see the positives of some things they're doing well, allows them the headspace to think actually I can go work on the other things now, because not to say that it minimalises it, but it makes them more absorbable. So when we were talking about the fist of all the things before being together, actually if we're able to offset the blow and the downtroddeness of those things that might not be going so well, it actually allows us to have some resilience to them and address them and process them.
Meaning that by the end of that 1001 days their baby's brain has had the opportunity to develop and be ready for school, had all the input they need, got supportive relationships, understands their own position, their own social emotional development, so that their baby can grow up in a different opportunity. It's not to say we can make things better, it's to say that we can offer a different way and there's an alternative. And I think that somewhat sums up the conversation we've been having today.
George:
Thanks to Colin and Ged for that really informative and thought-provoking discussion on early intervention and supporting parents through adversity. I wanted to end this episode with a contribution from Charlotte who describes how For Baby's Sake has helped her on her parenting journey.
Charlotte:
I think the confidence that I've gained from For Baby's Sake is what has made me go to university and want to get a career and better my life for Isabella. I'm going to university to become a paramedic, hopefully, and I would never have done that if I didn't have the people around me helping me become more confident within myself, not just my parenting, but me as a person becoming more confident. That's just something I would never have done before.
Outro:
Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast. At the time of recording, this episode’s content was up to date but the world of safeguarding and child protection is ever changing – so, if you're looking for the most current safeguarding and child protection training, information or resources, please visit our website for professionals at nspcc.org.uk/learning.
